Curse

toastgodsupreme · Jul 11, 2005, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Thomas, I feel like you're just trying to find ways to argue. None the less, I will respond.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomasuwoo

They do NOT only effect ranger skills. They effect any skill that is listed as a SKILL such as vampiric touch. It also effects warrior shout and weapon attacks. And yes a higher energy pool WOULD give us an advantage because...

In this game, there are a total of 18 SKILLS between ALL classes. The majority of these skills cost 5 energy and are in the warrior line. There are a total of 5 SKILLS that cost more than 5 energy. 2 are Ranger, 2 are Necro, 1 is Warrior. Expertise does not give the HUGE advantage you are trying to say it does when speaking about a ranger's secondary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomasuwoo

Try using a zealous bow string. Combine this with barrage or dual shot or even tigers fury. You shouldn't have many energy problems now.

So now we're sacrificing a pip of regen for the possibilty that that group of Trolls will stay together so that your barrage will remain effective in energy regen. This is also assuming I'm willing to give up my Sundering or Elemental that could possibly do much more damage per shot for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomasuwoo

Rangers have to manage their energy just like any other class. With expertise it it a fairly easy thing to do.

I find it easier on my Elementalist or Necro honestly. I'm currently sporting 11 in expertise and still find myself running low. If I was a necro and had 11 in Soul Reaping, I'd probably be a lot better off at the end of many battles energy-wise.

Do not go an tell me "Well go make a necro and stfu then". I have two thank you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomasuwoo

Tigers Fury is on the beast mastery atribute for a very good reason. It's very powerful.

And to counter the power of it, it disables all non attack skills for the duration. I think that's a great balance in itself. I and many others will still argue that it's placement is retarded because it's seemingly there only by the fact that it's named Tiger's Fury.

If it was called "Hunter's Fury" where do you think it would've gone? And wtf do beast masters need increased attack speed on themselves for? They should be focusing on pet attacks primarily. Personal attack speed is moot (at least from what I know of beast masters).

Thomas, to me, it sounds like you're saying Rangers are PERFECT as is. Rangers aren't the only class with problems either. ANet did their best and came out with a pretty good setup for all the classes. A higher starting energy pool (even 5) and bow grips that allowed a + on energy would be a VAST improvement. You sacrifice your health mod or your def mod for energy on your bow.

Thomasuwoo · Jul 11, 2005, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by toastgodsupreme

In this game, there are a total of 18 SKILLS between ALL classes. The majority of these skills cost 5 energy and are in the warrior line. There are a total of 5 SKILLS that cost more than 5 energy. 2 are Ranger, 2 are Necro, 1 is Warrior. Expertise does not give the HUGE advantage you are trying to say it does when speaking about a ranger's secondary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by toastgodsupreme

So now we're sacrificing a pip of regen for the possibilty that that group of Trolls will stay together so that your barrage will remain effective in energy regen. This is also assuming I'm willing to give up my Sundering or Elemental that could possibly do much more damage per shot for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by toastgodsupreme

I find it easier on my Elementalist or Necro honestly. I'm currently sporting 11 in expertise and still find myself running low. If I was a necro and had 11 in Soul Reaping, I'd probably be a lot better off at the end of many battles energy-wise.

Quickerning Zepher

Actualy that's a bit mean so I'll elaberate a bit too.
On the bow string. AS long as you are getting off ONE attack every 2 secconds you aren't losing energy. Using barrage or dual shot easily makes this possible, especialy when combined with Tigers fury, Lightning reflexes, flury, I will avenge you, beserker stance etc. When not attacking swich to a differnt bow.
One the necro soul reaping. Maybe you would have an easier time managing your energy but that assums that you've lived while everyone else is dead. I'm not dissing necros but in tearms of armour the rangers is vastly superiour. I do think comparing the class with the seccond highest armour in the game to the spell casters in tearms of spell power is a bit odd.

Quote:

Originally Posted by toastgodsupreme

And to counter the power of it, it disables all non attack skills for the duration. I think that's a great balance in itself. I and many others will still argue that it's placement is retarded because it's seemingly there only by the fact that it's named Tiger's Fury.

Actually it diables the skills for 5 seconds. It's duration can can be up to 7 secconds longer then that. And all of your bow atatcks are fine. You just can't use a preparation for 5 secconds. Maybe you could use your prepartions BEFORE tigers fury?

Quote:

Originally Posted by toastgodsupreme

If it was called "Hunter's Fury" where do you think it would've gone? And wtf do beast masters need increased attack speed on themselves for? They should be focusing on pet attacks primarily. Personal attack speed is moot (at least from what I know of beast masters).

Because maybe they are a primary/secondary warrior and like fight with their pet? Why should they only effect pets? Because it SAYS Beast Mastery? So it must have something to do with your pet? I always thought of tigers fury as getting to know your inner beast

Quote:

Originally Posted by toastgodsupreme

Thomas, to me, it sounds like you're saying Rangers are PERFECT as is. Rangers aren't the only class with problems either. ANet did their best and came out with a pretty good setup for all the classes. A higher starting energy pool (even 5) and bow grips that allowed a + on energy would be a VAST improvement. You sacrifice your health mod or your def mod for energy on your bow.

A VAST UNBALANCING improvement. We are powerful enough as is. They may not be perfectly balanced but damn man they are as close as any other class out there. Name another class that is balanced better then the ranger.

viet · Jul 11, 2005, 11:32 PM // 23:32

u kill a charr. its skin fall off. how did its hide fall to the ground?
you want to make Rangers better? give them a unique skill
Skinning.
other classes when they try to skin, will ruin the hide, or have 5% chance.
Rangers with their wilderness survival, know how to skin the hide from the flesh.

a bear dies, u need a ranger to skin it for its pelt!

arrows
hard to see. give them a glowing arrow tip!

2nd weapon
short sword. almost impossible to melee some 1 with a bow.

bow
any 1 whose shot an arrow knows that you hold the bow vertically not horizontally.

blackbird71 · Jul 12, 2005, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomasuwoo

Some of your best attacks such as dual and deabilitating shot aren't even linked to any atributes.

Dual shot? 10 energy for only a 50% increase in damage? Sorry, this one's only worth it if combined with something like ignite or kindle. Which then brings us back to the problem of needing wilderness survival to make an archery skill worthwhile.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomasuwoo

Tigers Fury is on the beast mastery atribute for a very good reason. It's very powerful. Combined with expertise it can be used over and over.

So the only reason its linked to that attribute is because its powerful? That doesn't make any sense. That just tells me that the game designers weren't imaginitive enough to come up with an animal related powerful skill to fill that role.
You're right, it's not an 'attack' per se, I'm just thinking of it in terms of an actual archer, where you put your feet has as much to do with the shot as how you aim or hold the bow, so allow me to clarify:

Speaking as an archer, no amount of knowledge of animals or control over them is going to do one thing for my stance when shooting, period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomaswoo

But can you make the "Best" Warrior without stregth? Can you make the "Best" Healer without Devine favor? Refer to above about specalising with a ranger.

Your missing the point completely, i'm not talking about being the best at a profession, but at being able to specialize in a single ability, swords, healing, frie spells, etc. Your argument holds so far as expertise functions the same as strength or divine favor, but why wilderness survival? Why a minimum of 3 attributes instead of 2?

blackbird71 · Jul 12, 2005, 03:29 AM // 03:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erace

im all for more weapons too, hell i dont mind being converted to a Ninja, ninjas rule, i dont like Crossbows tho, Throwing Knives would be a very nice idea to have, and i agree some more stealth abilities are needed, but im an Interupter so i dont mind if they are not put in.

As an intrupter i think that knives would be useful because

a. they would travel faster (i think) which is useful for an interupter
and
b. they would probably cost less energy to use.

Please! No more "ninja posts"!!! No more posts about new abilities, or new weapons, please stick to the topic! Yes, ninjas are cool, but that's not what a ranger is! So either grow up or go start your own thread about ninja rangers!

toastgodsupreme · Jul 12, 2005, 03:39 AM // 03:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbird71

Please! No more "ninja posts"!!! No more posts about new abilities, or new weapons, please stick to the topic! Yes, ninjas are cool, but that's not what a ranger is! So either grow up or go start your own thread about ninja rangers!

Quoted for truth.

Thomasuwoo · Jul 12, 2005, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbird71

Dual shot? 10 energy for only a 50% increase in damage? Sorry, this one's only worth it if combined with something like ignite or kindle. Which then brings us back to the problem of needing wilderness survival to make an archery skill worthwhile.

It Can be combined with a zealous bow string, Read the Wind, Preditory Season, Barbs, and Many other Non wilderness survival skills. And with expertise of 12 (Which many bow based abilities are linked to) it drops to a 5 energy cost. Look just try using Practiced Stance, Read the wind, favorable winds, distracting shot, dual shot, pin down, Penertrating attack and res sig. Bring a sundering bow, a vampiric bow and a zelouse bow. There you go. An archer that SPECALISES in bows and expertise. 2 atributes only. Now tell me what's wrong with it and i'm sure you'll begin to realise why I'm arguing with you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbird71

So the only reason its linked to that attribute is because its powerful? That doesn't make any sense. That just tells me that the game designers weren't imaginitive enough to come up with an animal related powerful skill to fill that role.

It's called game balance you twit. In case you haven't noticed differnt skills are link to differnt atributes so that you have to creativly spend your skill points depending on what skills you bring along. And tigers fury doesn't need too many beast mastery points to be effective anyway so stop complaining about it needing to be in the marksmenship tree when it effects ANY sort of attack (Wands and Swords etc.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbird71

You're right, it's not an 'attack' per se, I'm just thinking of it in terms of an actual archer, where you put your feet has as much to do with the shot as how you aim or hold the bow, so allow me to clarify:
Speaking as an archer, no amount of knowledge of animals or control over them is going to do one thing for my stance when shooting, period.

See above and going into a primal rage won't help? You can speed up your bow attacks with flurry, frenzy and beserkers stance. They aren't linked to marksmanship. Hell they're not even linked to the ranger tree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbird71

Your missing the point completely, i'm not talking about being the best at a profession, but at being able to specialize in a single ability, swords, healing, frie spells, etc. Your argument holds so far as expertise functions the same as strength or divine favor, but why wilderness survival? Why a minimum of 3 attributes instead of 2?

See the first quote.

Keep throwing this stuff at me blackbird. You haven't made a single point yet that i haven't been able to offer a solution to without needing to alter the games current mechanics.

balmung · Jul 12, 2005, 04:58 AM // 04:58

You know what is funny is that people are complaining about rangers needing to use wilderness survival. Think about it, if you saw a ranger not be able to survive in the wild that's really high level and experienced would be hilarious.
Having skills in wilderness should almost be a requirement.

I have a ranger myself and I have found that trap rangers have an advantage over the other classes. You ever goto UW as a group of Necros? Wars? Ele? Monks? or ME? lol no. One of the best group setups is alot of trap rangers and a few W/mo to tank and 1 Monk. I mean with enough trap rangers running Healing Spring the monk might get bored. The funny thing is when you bring a necro who uses frozen soil or something like that. However healing spring is not always a sure thing, which is why you will always need a monk.

The only thing that sucks as a trap ranger is interupt, but mantra of concetration, i think thats the one helps alot or just blind them then trap lol. Hell i even like to hide behind the Tank and trap.

If anything I think Monk is the #1 unbalanced class yet everyone needs one because no one likes to play one enough. Sure some one will say I love being a monk and what not. I have really been wondering why they didn't allow the Monk to be a fighter class as well. However it is like the number one secondary class for a fighter lol. But i'm also jaded as an avid AD&D player. So I think they should have named he monks Clerics.

I will say I have only really been into my ranger and really only researched that class the most. So this is just my opinion I am sure there is probably for flame for every opinion, everyone has. The above has just been my experience. I do think that every class can be incredibly versatile and do not forget, the skills we have not will not be the only skills ever.

CaptainGuru · Jul 12, 2005, 06:33 AM // 06:33

All around best Ranger build

Pure Ranger

Expertise 12+1
Marksmanship 11+1
Wilderness Survival 11+1

1. Choking Gas
2. Pin Down
3. Debilitating Shot
4. Quickening Zephyr
5. Melandru's Arrows
6. Poison Arrow
7. Power Shot
8. Distracting Shot

1) Spellcaster-type: Pin a spellcaster down while using Choking Gas. Use Melandru's Arrows and Poison Arrow once the spellcaster is out of energy. It'll do 10 damage per second using both Melandru's Arrows and Poison Arrow and 32 damage every now then with Power Shot. If they try to use a signet use Distracting Shot.

2) Warrior-type: Same method, but only two shots are needed.

Tellani Artini · Jul 12, 2005, 07:53 AM // 07:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainGuru

All around best Ranger build

Pure Ranger

Expertise 12+1
Marksmanship 11+1
Wilderness Survival 11+1

1. Choking Gas
2. Pin Down
3. Debilitating Shot
4. Quickening Zephyr
5. Melandru's Arrows
6. Poison Arrow
7. Power Shot
8. Distracting Shot

1) Spellcaster-type: Pin a spellcaster down while using Choking Gas. Use Melandru's Arrows and Poison Arrow once the spellcaster is out of energy. It'll do 10 damage per second using both Melandru's Arrows and Poison Arrow and 32 damage every now then with Power Shot. If they try to use a signet use Distracting Shot.

2) Warrior-type: Same method, but only two shots are needed.

You've got two elites there champ. There's good builds, and then there's wishful thinking. I don't suppose you've tried choking gas without an attack speed boost either? Not terribly reliable, especially against monks.

DragonRider · Jul 12, 2005, 08:03 AM // 08:03

I would like to see "camouflage" as a skill. Surely this is a natural talent that Rangers would have. It just seems to me a Ranger would have this skill available, thats what Rangers do, even more so than archery or pet taming.

shady_knife · Jul 12, 2005, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Principa Discordia

I'm all for my ranger having access to more weapons, but you're talking about making it into a ninja. I don't want to be a ninja.

dont use those skills and you wont be, but screw that, i reckon a whole new ninja/rogue/assassin class

Epinephrine · Jul 12, 2005, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by viet

bow
any 1 whose shot an arrow knows that you hold the bow vertically not horizontally.

As a longbow archer I'll argue this. I fire my bow in what is called a "canted" position; I angle the bow to shoot. This is more common in traditionally longbow archery as modern archers use sights which cannot be used in canted positions, but canting a bow does several things: It improves visiblilty, it transfers lateral errors to vertical errors (which is what the longbowman is used to working with) and reduces the chance of the arrow slipping off the arrow shelf. If you look at these points you'll see that a canted bow position is thus most useful when you need to be aware of surroundings and there is a risk of the arrow falling off the shelf, thus in any combat scenario pretty much. The correction of the vertical error rather than a horrizontal error is probably more training than anything else, but again, given that humans present targets vertically it makes some sense that if you were to drift off target you'd rather it be a vertical drift than a horizontal drift when firing on a human.

viet · Jul 12, 2005, 04:03 PM // 16:03

THAT makes sense about canted. i admit, i'm only an amateur bowman.

CaptainGuru · Jul 12, 2005, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tellani Artini

You've got two elites there champ. There's good builds, and then there's wishful thinking. I don't suppose you've tried choking gas without an attack speed boost either? Not terribly reliable, especially against monks.

D'oh...

good point, I wasn't thinking about that until now. I'll use Favorable Winds for that then instead.

And why would I used choking gas with a speed boost when I have the guy snared? He can't get away and he can't use any spells to remove it. The majority of players use spells rather than signets to remove conditions.

Thomasuwoo · Jul 12, 2005, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainGuru

D'oh...

good point, I wasn't thinking about that until now. I'll use Favorable Winds for that then instead.

And why would I used choking gas with a speed boost when I have the guy snared? He can't get away and he can't use any spells to remove it. The majority of players use spells rather than signets to remove conditions.

Because it has a very short duartion. One of the better things about choking gas is that it inturpes spellcasting to a small area. The more speed, the more interupts, the more effective. You have around 12 secconds, make the most of it.

blackbird71 · Jul 13, 2005, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomasuwoo

It's called game balance you twit. In case you haven't noticed differnt skills are link to differnt atributes so that you have to creativly spend your skill points depending on what skills you bring along. And tigers fury doesn't need too many beast mastery points to be effective anyway so stop complaining about it needing to be in the marksmenship tree when it effects ANY sort of attack (Wands and Swords etc.)

So now that you can't make a cohesive argument you're resorting to name calling? Real mature. The fact is, you still haven't given any reason beyond the name for it to be linked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomasuwoo

See above and going into a primal rage won't help? You can speed up your bow attacks with flurry, frenzy and beserkers stance. They aren't linked to marksmanship. Hell they're not even linked to the ranger tree.

Going into any kind of rage is just going to really screw up your aim, that kind of stuff may work when swinging a sword or other heavy object, but archery requires focus and concentration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomasuwoo

Keep throwing this stuff at me blackbird. You haven't made a single point yet that i haven't been able to offer a solution to without needing to alter the games current mechanics.

And you haven't made a single solution, just ignored the argument.

blackbird71 · Jul 13, 2005, 01:36 AM // 01:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

As a longbow archer I'll argue this. I fire my bow in what is called a "canted" position; I angle the bow to shoot. This is more common in traditionally longbow archery as modern archers use sights which cannot be used in canted positions, but canting a bow does several things: It improves visiblilty, it transfers lateral errors to vertical errors (which is what the longbowman is used to working with) and reduces the chance of the arrow slipping off the arrow shelf. If you look at these points you'll see that a canted bow position is thus most useful when you need to be aware of surroundings and there is a risk of the arrow falling off the shelf, thus in any combat scenario pretty much. The correction of the vertical error rather than a horrizontal error is probably more training than anything else, but again, given that humans present targets vertically it makes some sense that if you were to drift off target you'd rather it be a vertical drift than a horizontal drift when firing on a human.

Agreed. Anyone who has ever shot a style of bow from a few hundred years ago can tell you that you almost always have to shoot it canted, otherwise the arrow has a nasty habit of falling off

blackbird71 · Jul 13, 2005, 01:53 AM // 01:53

Ok, I'm not going to quote others here, because there are too many. People, when you are posting on a thread, read the original post, and stay on topic!

For reference, things that should be in this thread:

Comments about the comparison between the ranger skill distribution vs the skill distribution of other classes, and appropriateness of those skills and their related attributes.

Comments about suggestions for improvements to the ranger's pet skills or comments about the resurrection situation of pets.

What should not be in this thread:

No suggestions for new ranger weapons

No suggestions for new ranger skills

No suggestions for ranger builds, take them to the build forum (unless the build is being used to illustrate or demonstrate a point related to the original topic, then by all means, please share)

No suggestions for new ranger pets

And absolutely, positively, no ninjas!

Can I make it any more clear? These are fine topics for discussion, but please take them to a different thread, or start your own on the topic of your choice. A thread is opened for discussing a specific topic and sharing ideas on that topic. If someone is discussing baseball, you don't suddenly interject with quantum string theory! The same thing applies here, it's just common courtesy to stick with the topic, if you don't want to talk about it, please go somewhere else. Thank you.

CaptainGuru · Jul 13, 2005, 02:03 AM // 02:03

My suggestion would be to take away all forms of snares (Have traps cause opponents to be knockdown or interrupt them, but no snares.), take away their ability to heal in any form, and allow him to them "kite."